DMEC: Welcome to Absence Management Perspectives: A DMEC Podcast. The Disability Management Employer Coalition, or DMEC, as we're known by most people, provides focused education, knowledge and networking opportunities for absence and disability management professionals. DMEC has become a leading voice in the industry and represents more than 18,000 professionals from organizations of all sizes across the United States and Canada. This podcast series will focus on industry perspectives and provide the opportunity to delve more deeply into issues that affect DMEC members and the community as a whole. We're thrilled to have you with us and hope you'll visit us@dmec.org to get a full picture of what we have to offer. From webinars and publications to conferences, certifications and much more. Let's get started and meet the people behind the processes.

Heather Grimshaw: Hi, we're glad you're with us. I'm Heather Grimshaw, Communications Manager for DMEC, and in this episode we're going to talk about how employers can ensure that supervisors and managers have the information and knowledge they need to support employees. There are a few questions or concerns that come up regularly with the DMEC Editorial Advisory Group as they review articles and columns for @Work magazine, and we hear some of those same questions and concerns discussed by DMEC conference speakers. We've asked Kristin Jones, DMEC's Director of Education Programs, and Jess Dudley, DMEC's Education Manager, to join us today and shed some light on this important topic of how employers can prepare managers and supervisors for success and by extension, avoid liability. So my first question is, is it fair to say that the question of when to refer an employee to human resources or absence and disability management specialists is a universal challenge for supervisors and managers? And if so, why? Kristin, maybe you can kick us off and then we'll ask Jess to chime in.

Kristin Jones: Sure. Thank you, Heather. It is. I have experienced that at every organization I have been in, and I don't think it has anything to do with the caliber of our managers. I think we have wonderful managers. I think it's just that it's not their core business. It's not what they're measured on. They are focused on running a function of your business. It's a hard line or a hard balance to find of how much to educate them. And so because they're not fully aware of things or of all the nuances of it, sometimes they miss things. But generally they're just very focused on running their piece of the business. And I think that makes it challenging for them to really understand these processes. Jess, what do you think?

Jess Dudley: I would agree. I think that especially with leave requests, it isn't that they have to say some type of magic word I need FMLA. They can, in passing, mention that their shoulder hurts and that they need to take some time off. So I think it's important for supervisors, or it's kind of a learned art, maybe for supervisors, that they have to hear what their employees are saying, but then they also have to listen for what they're not saying and pick up on those cues. So it's definitely something that takes practice and that I think, is a challenge for supervisors.

Heather Grimshaw: I like the way you said that, Jess, a learned art for supervisors. And that's something that I have heard speakers talk about is listening for those cues that someone might not articulate specifically. So that's a great point. I'm also wondering if this is a new challenge or something that's becoming more difficult with an increasing number of leave laws.

Kristin Jones: I can lead off with that. I think it's an existing challenge that has kind of always been around as long as we have had any leave laws. But I do think it's increasing in complexity. Just as more people are eligible for more types of leave or more reasons or family relationships, there's even more detail that supervisors might not be aware of. I mean, how many supervisors really understand to the level of knowing that if someone says, I am taking care of my cousin sue, they might not realize that that could be an eligible relationship depending on the state, depending on the type of leave, depending on the reason they're taking care of sue. And there's just a lot of detail to that. I think as the number of leave laws increases, I think the difficulty here increases, but I do think it's an issue that's been around.

Jess Dudley: Yeah, I would agree with Kristin on that as well. And then if you look at how the workforce has been changing over the last several years, managers are being asked to do more and more and more with less and less resources… They're trying to run the business or help run the business and do their tasks and this is just an extra thing for them to keep in mind. So I think it's difficult or that adds to the difficulty.

Heather Grimshaw: One question that raises for me is the issue of when to refer. Kristin, I think you gave the example of someone saying, my aunt, there's a shoulder issue and I need to help out. When is it right for managers to then say, thank you for letting me know. I'm going to refer you to Human Resources and or absence and disability management specialists. If you guys would weigh in on that, I think it would be really helpful. Maybe, Kristin, you could kick us off first.

Kristin Jones: Sure. I think it might look slightly different for every organization depending on several different factors. But generally, as soon as a supervisor understands that there might be something that that employee could be eligible for as far as, like a leave or a benefit that they might be eligible for at the organization or benefit from that's. Generally, when you want that handoff, or at least that kind of flag to be raised, you want to let HR or whoever is handling this. You want them to let them know, and sometimes it's obviously as early as possible is helpful, but sometimes it is kind of preliminary, which maybe somebody mentions that Aunt Sue is having some difficulty. They're really worried, concerned they might need to help out or step in and help out at some point. There's no leave being requested. They're just kind of venting about their stress and concern about their family member. That's a great time to clue in so that someone in the appropriate department can reach out, let them know, kind of explore that what they might be eligible for. Even though in that moment it's more of an awareness for the supervisor. It's maybe more of like a relationship-based conversation of just having that human-to-human conversation with a coworker, a peer who is struggling in stress, with the knowledge that, hey, this might become more I might need to manage my piece of the business differently in the near future. If they do need to go out and take leave. And again, I think that will look different by organization. But generally, as soon as there is any indication that there could be something coming down the pipeline that would impact their ability to work is ideally when you want the appropriate team clued in. But Jeff, what are your thoughts?

Jess Dudley: Yeah, and I agree with what you're saying there. And my approach to it always was it's not a no harm, no foul if you're providing additional information for your employee. It's showing that you're a caring manager. So if an employee were to come to me with an issue, I would offer resources. You might not be aware, but we have this benefit if this is something that you might find helpful, here's the people you need to contact. So it's kind of doing a warm hand off or at least putting information in the employees lap. Say, we have this available for you if you need me to do more, let me know. If you want to reach out to people, here's the information to do that. So I think that having that type of conversation with employees is helpful as well.

Kristin Jones: Yeah. And I would also just piggyback too, that you kind of asked this as when do we want that to be brought up? And I think Jess had a great response about adding or giving resources and information as soon as possible from a really caring kind of positioning and way there. I think it's also really helpful to look at how we support and guide our managers as well. I know just when I was in the field as a practitioner, there were several times and I had really great managers and really clued in managers, but there were also several times that just in weekly meetings with our frontline leaders, things would come out in general conversation, oh, Joe's really worried about his aunt, or, this is going on with this person. Or kind of thinking about future needs for their production area, that they weren't necessarily coming to me and saying, hey, I want to mention this, I think this is going to be an issue. It was more of it came about in casual conversation in those discussions or around those discussions and meetings. And so I think that really emphasizes the importance of having regular contact with the managers and supervisors listening into those things that are being said, having the casual conversation. Because a lot of times they don't realize and they won't realize some of the things that need to be raised up. But if you're engaging with them in various ways, I think you're more likely to get clued in even in more roundabout ways. So I think in just providing some general support, some regular meetings and staffing planning meetings and things like that with your frontline leaders, you can also kind of get a little bit of that information sometimes that way as well.

Jess Dudley: Yeah, I agree with that completely because everybody wants to do the right thing. It's just remember to notify the people that you need to when you go about it.

Kristin Jones: I think you always want to put some roadblocks in place for anyone in any situation and organization when they're making an employment decision, some pauses in the process. Maybe it is you have to tie in or get approval from legal. Maybe you have to run it through a couple of layers of the organization before you proceed. I think that gives an opportunity for everyone to step back from it, really look at the facts and information, make sure we're not making an emotional decision. I think it's not uncommon to suspect leave abuse or leave misuse or a legitimate or fraud. I do, however, think it's more uncommon to actually experience leave abuse and fraud. I think we suspect it may be a little bit more than it actually happens. And I think studies support that, our findings support that. But I think it can be really emotional. I think when we do suspect that there is leave misuse, it's kind of personal. You feel taken advantage of and no one likes to feel taken advantage of. So we can react emotionally. And I think that's at all levels, I think peers coworkers feel taken advantage of because they're the ones covering the work. I think managers feel taken advantage of because they're the ones with trying to staff their team and keep morale up and leave administrators feel taken advantage of. They're the ones who make decisions on leaves and certify them. And it's hard not to feel taken advantage of. But I think it is important to take a pause and look at the facts, because there are sometimes that we see something that might, on its face, look, well, that's not what you're supposed to be doing on leave. You're not supposed to be going to a concert when you're on leave while we're here busting our rear ends trying to get this work done. But if they're on leave for maybe anxiety, a concert is not incongruent with a leave for that. Or maybe if their arm is broken, you can still go to a concert with a broken arm. Maybe you can't lift something on the production floor that you need to do, but certainly you could do that. And so I think it's really important to look at the details of is this inconsistent with that person's need for leave? And a lot of times the supervisor should not have that information, generally speaking. So that's when we need to tie in some more groups here to take a look at that. Is this inconsistent? And then, is this something then if it is inconsistent, there's still more to do. We still need to ask questions and look into that. So I do think that there are some things we can do to prevent those initial reactions to that that can get us in hot water, and we should be putting some of those kind of pause points in our processes to make sure that we're doing that.

Jess Dudley: Yeah, I agree. That knee jerk reaction can really cause emotions to rise and have people invested in a narrative that just isn't correct. I've experienced just from case managing, we had an employee that was out playing guitar on an evening. They weren't able to work. They had a hand injury, but they're out playing guitar. And that made its way from their coworkers to their supervisor to myself. And just on its face value, that looked very suspicious, I would admit. But once we took a pause, stepped back, did our investigation, talked to the right people, gave everybody time to explain, we found out that that was part of therapy. A doctor had prescribed that the strumming of the guitar was good for the hand. Like I said, it was their therapy. So even things that can seem very questionable and give rise to emotions, it's always important to have that pause in there and step back and do that investigation.

Heather Grimshaw: I think that's a great example, Jess. Thank you for that. Because it's those examples of what happens in the moment that can prompt someone to react quickly and maybe too quickly and then regret it later. And it also sets me up nicely for my next question, which is that it seems like some people may assume that supervisors and managers know more than they do. Is there an easy way to test this knowledge so leaders can ensure their teams have what they need to support employees and to protect employers from liability? And I'm also wondering if there's a recommended frequency for training supervisors and managers since things seem to change so frequently. Jess, do you want to go first on this one? Since I keep picking on Kristin to go first.

Jess Dudley: I would say that training is definitely important. And supervisors are there doing what's in their wheelhouse. They're doing their jobs, and they're focusing on that. And they might have a team that doesn't have a lot of absence. So it's really having those tools out there that at the moment need tools out there for them and then following up with that training. And as far as training, I would recommend at least annually for training and then kind of building out a plan from there.

Kristin Jones: Yeah, I completely agree. We generally here at DMEC recommend annual training as just a baseline. And we got that kind of or we formulated that baseline just off of a couple of years ago at one of our compliance conferences. Helen Applewhaite with the Department of labor recommended annual training. It is not a requirement, just to be clear. It was just a recommendation there. And like Just said, though, I think that's a baseline. I think if something changes in well, the Leave law landscape, or if something changes in your organization's administration or handling, or if you see a need for whatever reason, for increased training, I mean, certainly more, I don't think is bad. But there is something to be said for just kind of not over communicating, but making sure you hit that right level of communication. And that's tricky to do, especially with as just mentioned, this isn't our supervisor's wheelhouse. They're tasked with running the business, so they need enough information just to kind of understand their role and their triggers in this. And so, yeah, we generally recommend annual and kind of making sure, like you do with other compliance trainings, making sure you're kind of checking, doing knowledge checks in that to make sure they're retaining the information. They understand the information when they're getting it. And I think that goes a long way in showing that you as an organization are doing your due diligence to make sure that your supervisors are properly informed on this.

Heather Grimshaw: That's a great point. I like that knowledge checks. So we also hear about common manager and supervisor missteps when an employee is out on leave or looking for an accommodation. Can you shed light on some of these issues?

Kristin Jones: There were a couple recent court cases that came through that just really highlighted misperceptions around disabilities are still maybe a little more common than I realize, [than] I'd like to think. And maybe it's just me being optimistic or naive, but that we are kind of beyond a lot of that. But it really does still exist, and we really do need to make sure we have processes in place to prevent against that in the workplace. And what comes to mind for me is two recent EEOC cases. These are both from within the last six months or so. In the first one, an employee who had been working with an employer for over six months with great performance reviews and great feedback, disclosed to the supervisor that they had had a panic attack. It was not impacting their ability to work. They weren't getting any negative performance reviews because of it. It was just a disclosure, probably kind of one of those more casual things mentioned to a peer or a manager, and that employment relationship was ended based on that conversation. So just simply the disclosure of a disability resulted in that person losing their position. And then another one that was just here within the last few months was very similar. In this one, the employee was actually requesting an accommodation to test blood sugars throughout the day because of their diabetes. And the human resources supervisor referred to that person, and they're with the disability as a liability to the organization, and their employment was terminated because of it. They simply asked for an accommodation. So cases like that really highlight why people still are sometimes hesitant to come forward with a request for accommodation or to disclose disabilities in the workplace. So I think we have a lot of opportunity at our own individual organizations to create a culture that builds trust and lets employees know that they'll be supported and then also to provide that training for supervisors and managers. I think when we have those strong cultures, I think that permeates through those frontline leaders and they invest into that culture. It also helps eradicate some of those misnomers or misunderstandings around disabilities. And I think a lot of good can come from that. But I think those two very recent cases really stand out to me as far as just illustrating the work we still have to do in this space. But I know we have so many employers who we interact with in our roles here at DMEC who are doing such great things that it really does still inspire me. And I think we're on the right track, but there's certainly still work to be done.

Heather Grimshaw: That's really helpful, thank you. Thank you both for your time today and sharing your expertise and the experiences that you've had, because I think it is so important to share those examples and that really illustrate not only the complexity, but the need for, as you've both said, to take a pause and rethink and tap your resources. So thank you both.

Jess Dudley: Thank you.

Kristin Jones: Yeah, thank you very much.