[00:04] DMEC: Welcome to Absence Management Perspectives: A DMEC Podcast. The Disability Management Employer Coalition, or DMEC as we're known by most people, provides focused education, knowledge, and networking opportunities for absence and disability management professionals. DMEC has become a leading voice in the industry and represents more than 20,000 professionals from organizations of all sizes across the United States. In Canada, this podcast series focuses on industry perspectives and delves into issues that affect DMEC members and the community as a whole. We're thrilled to have you with us and hope you'll visit us@dmec.org to get a full picture of what we have to offer, from webinars and publications to conferences, certifications, and much more. Let's get started and meet the people behind the processes.

[00:58] Heather Grimshaw: Hi, we're glad you're listening. I'm Heather Grimshaw, and today we are talking about the 2024 DMEC annual conference with Bryon Bass, DMEC's CEO, Kristen Jones, DMEC's director of education programs and Jess Dudley, DMEC's education manager. So I'd like to kick off our conversation today by asking you all for your top takeaways from the annual conference in Nashville. Bryon, let's start with you here, and then we'll ask Jess and Kristen to weigh in.

[01:29] Bryon Bass: Hi, Heather. Thanks. Yeah, so, reflecting on the conference this year, there really were so many great things at this year's conference, as there is every year, but it was very exciting this year. I think we're getting energy levels back to what we were seeing prior to the pandemic, and I'm just so excited. I heard so many great things from attendees at this year's conference around how much they appreciated the balance of the topics, the folks that they were able to interact with, and just the programming overall. Just kudos to our entire team who has been responsible for putting this together. It was just an excellent, excellent week for all involved. For me, taking a step back and looking at the top takeaways, I think we continue to remind ourselves of the complexity of the work that we do day in and day out. And although we have a dedicated conference every year around compliance in this area, we continue to see a lot of compliance related topics at this conference. And navigation around this complex web of federal, state, and local regulations continues to be a huge, huge challenge for employers. And so we had a lot of sessions that provided valuable guidance on staying compliant, particularly from an ADA perspective. And we sensed that that was a need from our members, not only based on what we've heard and what we're seeing in feedback from our webinars and past conference sessions, but also in recognizing that some of our top rated and top used educational topics are continued to be around the Americans with Disabilities act and the ADA. And so we started the conference off this year with a pre-conference, an afternoon with Rachel Shaw on an ADA compliance mini boot camp. And I heard so many raves about this session from those that attended, and we had about 50 folks attend that mini boot camp. And I was told just how insightful it was in offering them deep insights into refining their compliance strategies and their approach in working through the ADA compliance, especially as it relates to the interactive process. Overall. One thing overarching is really around the compliance and that complex web that we have to deal with on a day to day basis. I think secondarily, we heard a lot about technology and how technology plays an increasingly transformative role in what we do in the absence disability and leave management space. If we take a step back and look at what we hear from employers today, especially as it relates to our leave practices survey, which we do every two years, and which we released earlier this year, there are still a significant number of employers that don't have an adequate level of technology to effectively manage the work that they need to do around claims management and absence disability and leave. It's over 40%, as a matter of fact, state that they're still using spreadsheets of some form to try to keep up with everything that's going on. And frankly, I don't know how that's possible if you're a multistate employer, especially if you have employees in multiple states that have a significant number of laws, that you have that overlay with each other and you need to coordinate with. So we heard a lot about how technology is helping and how technology can help in that regard. We also are hearing more and more about AI and artificial intelligence in absence management. So we had a couple of sessions that were focused on that, and really we're seeing AI is just now being introduced into absence management conversation, but it's really been part of absence management for a very long time. It's just a question of how we're using the new types of AI in our day to day activities as it relates to machine learning and generative thinking, and all the things that we're seeing now in the new emergence of the newer sides of AI technology, and then finally really continuing to understand all of the underlying components that have an impact on individuals, whether it's from a mental health perspective, whether it's from an overall stress perspective or a lack of support perspective that employees are seeking from their employers, but they're not always getting. So we are hearing a lot of things in a lot of the sessions around. What are those things that you as an employer should be thinking about, not only for your employees who are out on a leave, but what about the employees that are left behind that are picking up for employees who are out on a leave? How are you understanding what their needs are and how are you providing support for them? So I think that there's a lot of emerging things that we're seeing in that particular area of care and support. And I mentioned in one of the opening remarks around this whole concept of care washing, which is something that I'm hearing more and more about. And that is where an employer has all of these programs in place and they talk about and they brand themselves around the care that they have for their employees. But in actual practice, when you get down to that direct supervisor level or some layers of management, that care actually isn't there in practice. And that's called care washing. And so we're starting to see some evidence of that, in that the younger generations in the workforce are starting to recognize and identify that if their employer is not providing them with the care support mechanisms that they're seeking, they're identifying it right away, and then they're seeking employment with employers that will provide that to them. So I think we're seeing some evolution in that particular area. And those are my long winded way of talking about the three things that I took away from the conference.

[08:04] Heather Grimshaw: That's great, Bryon. Thank you for kicking us off there. And I'm hoping Jess and Kristen, you will weigh in as well.

[08:12] Jess Dudley: Yeah, so I took a little bit of a different perspective from Bryon. I agree 100% with everything that he said. But one of the top takeaways that I had from conference was just the incredible sense of community that our members and attendees have. There were conversations and collaborations between the attendees. They were just inspiring. People weren't just exchanging ideas, but they were really sharing their experiences and their successes. There was a lot of, have you tried this? Or you're sitting in a session and someone asks a question and someone else's hand will pop up and they'll be like, well, this worked for us. You should try something like this. And they were everywhere. So I think that really shows that our industry just thrives on this collective knowledge and support. Another thing that stood out to me was the networking that takes place. It's always a highlight. It's something that I talk to first time attendees about each year. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly all of these newcomers that come in, and they just blend right in with our industry's community. It's kind of a testament, I think, to the welcoming and inclusive environment that we foster. Building these connections, it's not just professionally beneficial to everyone, but it really strengthens our overall community and just the knowledge and the sharing and support, all of that. And then one of the other things that I noticed, or I don't know, I probably already realized, but I know that we have some very talented presenters, but I realized this time we have some really talented attendees as well. I was a little blown away by. There were a couple impromptu performances that I witnessed. There were some incredible singers that are buried in amongst our crowd. And I'm also just going to give a quick shout out to Kristen for showing off her dance moves. I didn't know that the conference could maybe double as a talent show as well.

[10:07] Bryon Bass: Well, we certainly can't forget Gina Rutledge in that, either. She was really.

[10:15] Heather Grimshaw: That's great. I love that. And very true. And so, Kristen, let's round out this first question and answer with your input, please.

[10:25] Kristin Jones: All right. And I'm not even doing a line dance while I speak, so you won't have me huffing and puffing, because that was a really embarrassing part of trying to dust off those moves, was that I'm very out of shape, decades removed from the last time I did those. For me, I think some of the takeaways, I think the biggest one for me was just how critical it is for an organization to have a suite of support offerings that meets the whole employee where they are. There's a lot more conversation around that now, and it's exciting to see that ramping up. Bryon has said it time and again, compliance is the floor. And, you know, while we have to have our arms around the compliance piece and understand that annual conference is conference is really such a great opportunity to talk about the next level of that at your organization. And I think we're seeing that sentiment sweep through our industry as employees and employers alike are expecting more from leave and disability management teams. And we're really kind of expected to and tasked with meeting the whole employee, the needs of the whole employee, and meeting them where they are. And this is a great opportunity. And we had some great sessions on how to do that, how to identify those needs, how to address those needs, and the above and beyond things that we can do to really make our organizations stand apart and foster that engagement and strong culture that we're looking for and connected in with that is the need to understand and measure your program. So you have to understand what you're doing and how that compares with other organizations, what the results and impacts of that are. And I think this is newer to emerge in our industry. I think, on its face, it sounds really simple, but we have not historically had the tools to do that measurement or that benchmarking, and we have them now. That's something that has been really important for DMEC to bring to our audience and to capture that. We've been capturing that information and putting out static reports for years, and those have been really helpful and given great insights. And then we've taken a step forward further with our dashboards and the ability, but we're also really leaning into that and teaching people how to use those things because we haven't had that kind of data and information at our fingertips. And I can't speak for everyone in our industry, but I know myself, I'm not a data person. When I was an HR, when I was a practitioner, still the same person, still not that data person. I didn't, not only did I not have it, but had I had it, I wouldn't have really known what to do with it. And so we're trying to kind of make that accessible in that way at all levels. But I think we're just seeing more and more of the importance of understanding your organization's offerings, how they measure up against others from a competitive standpoint, knowing what those outcomes are, the impact that your leaves and accommodations are having on your overall organization. And, I mean, not only are senior leaders asking for this, but it's an important tool to understand how to meet those evolving needs of your workforce and those expectations. And then my final one is just the way that our attendees want to engage and learn is continuing to evolve. And, you know, we introduced several workshops at this conference, and they were wildly popular. People still want to hear, you know, the concepts, the theory, the ideas, those things as well, but they also want to engage with the learning and take it further. You know, they want to get in there with the experts and navigate scenarios with feedback and guidance from the experts. They want the opportunity to shape a policy template together and workshop ideas, talk through the pros and cons together. And not to get too far ahead of this conversation, but we're going to have an opportunity for some of this hands on, guided learning experience at our virtual conference as well. And I'm super excited about that, because I just really seeing people get in there and get their hands dirty with these concepts and ideas and the work of what we do. And I think that's really exciting.

[14:57] Heather Grimshaw: That is exciting. And so Bryon alluded to this a little earlier, that the four-day conference started with an ADA pre conference with Rachel Shaw. Jess, I'm hoping that you will talk a little bit about this, and I'm using air quotes, mini boot camp, as it was described, and what you found most valuable.

[15:18] Jess Dudley: Sure. Yeah. So the bootcamp focused on the critical aspects of the interactive process for disability accommodations in the workplace. And I think the key takeaway was really the importance of a timely and a good faith interactive process that involves gathering solid data and making informed decisions. Both of those were things that Rachel stressed, and then ensuring that all actions that you take are backed by clear communications and especially when addressing reasonable accommodations. The process that she walked through was all about making sure that both short term accommodations and long term accommodations are both handled smoothly. So she kind of broke it into two parts. And in the short term, there were triggers, like requests or medical notes would come in that this should prompt immediate action, with a focus on exploring temporary accommodations and documenting every step. And when you had the longer term kind of accommodations, when people had permanent work restrictions or chronic conditions, the process became even more structured, and it involved multiple conversations, documenting your findings and then meeting to make sure that decisions are based on thorough data and clear criteria. I think one of the most valuable points was the emphasis on asking those clarifying questions and having those tough conversations. You need to get good data. You need to be able to explain your why behind your decision, and then you can guide employees through a solid process so that they feel supported. Ultimately, it's all about finding a solution, or as Rachel Shaw would say, finding that. Yes. So you find the solution that works for both employees and the organization, and then you use the data to make the process as smooth as possible. For me, the most valuable part was how she helped everyone come to the understanding of the importance of consistency and education. Because by educating the employees and being consistent in your approach, you can help ensure better outcomes and minimize that misunderstandings. So it's not just about compliance. It's a lot about compliance, but it's also about supporting people through what can be one of the most challenging times in their careers.

[17:34] Heather Grimshaw: I love that reference to minimizing misunderstandings. Thank you. So, in addition to the 50 educational sessions that were offered during the annual conference, I heard attendees talking about the roundtable discussions and networking opportunities throughout the conference, which you all have referenced, I'm hoping that you'll share some of the challenges that you heard attendees discuss, and what, if any, solutions were proposed during the roundtable discussions. Kristen, I'm hoping that we can start with you here and then ask Bryon and Jess to weigh in.

[18:10] Kristin Jones: Sure. You know, we had the opportunity to have both networking, like you mentioned, and the roundtables. And obviously, just in the nature of the roundtable discussions, that interaction, there's a lot of networking that happens in those. So speaking specifically to kind of that aspect of those communications, that dialogue with people, it just. It felt really vibrant at this conference, and that was. Was really fun and to see and to kind of get to be a part of. But it's also a great opportunity to understand the needs and challenges of our audience and our attendees. I think a lot of people, I heard specifically from some from several people who were coming into those discussions with really specific goals in mind. You know, they knew coming into this conference, were struggling with this at my organization. And, you know, I'm gonna either attend a roundtable about that, or I'm going to kind of network and talk to vendors and talk to other people about that. And I just think it's such a great opportunity. And I loved how thoughtful people were with their approach, and I had several different interactions along those lines. So I chatted with someone, with one attendee who was specifically looking for information on outside counsel relationships, and then vendors. She could outsource her leave of absence or co source. I'm sorry, her leave of absence with. And she was really excited about the opportunity to have those discussions in a way that didn't feel pressured, that she could talk to other people, see who they were using, how they were approaching certain aspects of that relationship. You know, since she was looking to co source, she was interested in talking about, what do you keep control of and ownership of in house, what goes external, what can be done, what makes the most sense to be done. And she could take those conversations then into the solutions marketplace, where our exhibitors were set up, and she could have discussions that could go as deep as she liked, depending on how that vendor resonated with her. It was low pressure, an opportunity to not only hear what others are doing, but also what's available out there, and then go the next level and actually talk to some of the folks that provide that. I had a couple other attendees ask about opportunities to connect with professionals from specific industries. You know, there was someone from a school system looking to connect with other others working in similar environment. There was a woman from airline industry looking to connect with others there. So it was really fun to be able to kind of make some of those connections with people, but also hear what people are looking for, because not only do we, we use that as we guide these opportunities at our conferences, but we also use that to inform the tools and opportunities we have at DMEC as a whole. As we look at things like how our online communities are structured and how they're grouped and set up, just the different opportunities we bring into how we structure the roundtable groupings and things like that, it's always so helpful to hear what people are looking for and how they'd like to use tools. And people not only solve for those things together in their discussions, but also we kind of take little notes and take that back for the things that we can do. And I just think that's really exciting to be a part of.

[21:35] Heather Grimshaw: It is really unique, I think. And certainly you see that as DMEC rolls out new educational offerings in so many different areas. Bryon, will you share some of your takeaways there as well?

[21:48] Bryon Bass: Yeah, I'd be happy to. I think in addition to what Kristen already laid out, I experienced exactly the same that she did. And I just wanted to focus on one of the roundtable discussions that I was a part of and actually led, and that was around benchmarking. And I think that it never ceases to amaze me just how much opportunity we have as an industry to find data sources that are relevant and that are accurate and that are informative enough to help ensure that employers have what they need to improve their programs. And during the session, we kind of opened up the conversation to ask what folks are benchmarking on today and what they're looking for and what they'd like to be benchmarking on. And that conversation quickly turned into one where there was discussion of higher level metrics that maybe you give to your high level executives within an organization and what those look like and what are some opportunities and how you can dissect. And really, I call it slice and dice in different ways, all the way down to what might be happening at the more macro levels as it relates to the types of claims that are coming through that you're seeing, and then also the types of conditions that are coming through, et cetera. And that there were folks that were all over the place in terms of their capabilities. And again, this goes back to the conversation that we were talking about earlier around how technology is becoming such an increasing part of the work. That we do, and that those that don't have technology to help support them are kind of really finding themselves in situations where they don't have enough of their own data to understand where their program is and where their program needs to go. That said, for those types of employers who are in this roundtable discussion, there were several people who were also in this session who were offering spreadsheets and other things that they have already put together in order to track their metrics, in order to do benchmarking. They've talked about doing benchmarking on their own, within their own industry around specific questions. So there was just a lot of conversation around what opportunities are there when there's an absence of something comprehensive in the industry overall. And then that led us to the opportunity to talk about DMEC's approach on benchmarking around plan and policy design and why we have provided that resource to our members so that they have something that they can go to and they can rely on. And with some 1100 employers who've participated in that survey of all size and in all industry, it really gives every single one of our member organizations something that they can go to and they can do research and they can understand what are some of the common things that are happening within their peer industry and size groups.

[25:17] Heather Grimshaw: That's really interesting. Jess, we'd love to hear your input as well.

[25:21] Jess Dudley: Sure. I guess from one of the standouts, from one of the roundtables that I attended, it was related to return to work and stay at work strategies. The discussion there was pretty rich. There was a lot of participation. Attendees were sharing both their struggles and successes. One particular solution that kind of resonated with me was surprisingly simple, yet extremely effective for this company. One company had indicated they were having issues with their leaves. They weren't losing employees, but they were kind of losing track of them, and they weren't getting the connection that they were expecting. So one of their approaches was just to set a 15 minutes call at the beginning of the leave. During this call, they would have a good conversation with the employee, they would set expectations, they would offer available resources, they would talk about any questions that the employee had, and then later on in the leave, at a minimum, they would follow up two weeks prior, but they were supposed to return to work. And again, they would have that 15 minutes call, set expectations, they'd offer available resources, ask if there were any questions, address any concerns. And I think this focus on clear and consistent communication proved really valuable for them. And not only did it support their employee, but it also really seemed to ease their overall leave management process, and many of the attendees had similar stories to this.

[26:54] Heather Grimshaw: So for me, it's always really interesting to see which sessions are standing room only during in person conferences, which is always an indication that topics have hit a chord with attendees. And I'm hoping you will talk about the most popular topics at this conference and any insights into new or evolving challenges that are facing employers. Bryon, let's start with you here, and then we'll ask Jesse and Kristen to weigh in.

[27:20] Bryon Bass: Yeah, so the one topic that I went to where there was almost standing room only was the afternoon session on the future of artificial intelligence and leaving disability management. It was a very interesting conversation that MMA led with folks from Alite, Comsykhdeene, Reliance Matrix, and Hartford, and each of them gave their perspectives around AI and how they see its future integration, if you will, into the absence management space. But in particular, there were a lot of anecdotes that were provided in terms of situations where AI was used, probably in an inappropriate way, and it resulted in some significant downstream issues, not necessarily from a disability and absence management perspective, but just in the wild being used. And really those are cautionary tells for us in terms of how we should be incorporating these newer AI technologies into the work that we do. And the question around this was really, how is it being used? What are the boundary conditions that should be put in place? What are the pitfalls? Should it even be used at all? There were just a number of topics of conversation that were addressed there, and I think that given the standing room only aspect of the attendance in that room, AI really is on the minds of us in our industry, and what is that going to mean to us? And we recognize and we understand that so much that we are convening a think tank around AI, and we will in 2025 begin a significant amount of work on that to really help identify what AI will look like for us in our industry. And what are some things that employers and vendors and suppliers in this space should be rallying around as it relates to how we're incorporating it into the work that we do day in and day out?

[29:47] Jess Dudley: I think that's going to be so exciting for 2025, because like you said, there's so much to learn about AI. I'm with Heather on putting together this conference. It's really a labor of love for many of us here. So I always find it fascinating as well to hear what sessions resonate and why. One of my favorite sessions was the opening keynote speaker with Amberlee Schneider and her story from tragedy to triumph. But if we're speaking from attendees perspective, and mine as well, I also heard a lot of great feedback and conversation around the session. You can have paid leave and a productive workforce, and here's the secret sauce. We had Deshawna Manly and Jenny Meriwether and Kristin Tugman and our very own Bryon bass as the moderator. And I think this session really struck a with me and attendees. There was discussion around thinking about productivity beyond just the headcount, and you can think about those that are not taking the time and how are they doing, and how might the health of these workers who remain on the job be affected while their colleagues are on leave. And the panel did such a great job, I thought, talking about types of indirect costs and where they might be showing up in your data, and I think that's important because we've all probably been in that position where we're supporting our coworkers and we're doing what's needed while they're on their leave. We're managing our own workload, we're managing that extra workload, and it can be really stressful. So it was surprising, some of the data that I heard that had been just the results of it, but it was nice to see it compiled, and it was novel to hear that this issue was being looked at. But I think most excitedly group had indicated that there's more to come. So as far as providing resources or advice on how to best plan for this. So I found that to be really exciting. I know. Kristen, what did you think?

[31:44] Kristin Jones: For me, I think what really struck me was the compliance conversations and the details of items that people struggle with. And I think it's twofold. For me. I think it speaks to, like, heather, your specific question was around, you know, things that are newly emerging or evolving, and I think the compliance concerns or challenges for employers, it evolves as that space evolves. But I think it's also interesting to note that it also stays the same. Like, that is something that there are some aspects of that that really aren't evolving. We're still seeing standing room only in sessions that are around some of the finer details of FMLA, like recertifications or authentications or the processes there. And those haven't changed substantially in a number of years, but we still have struggles around those, where we see pieces, like I said, around the FMLA. And there are some areas that have evolved. We also see the same when we have conversations around PWFA documentation that is new, that is an evolution in what we're seeing the foundation is still compliance, but, you know, really understanding when we can and can't request documentation what that request looks like, or in the case of a specific session that I'm thinking of, was on one of the afternoons, and it was around fitness for duty and the medical assessment process. Jeff Novak led a really great discussion for us around that, and that one was standing room only. And again, that's not something that's new for our space, but it's something that continues to be challenging and feels tricky for people. And we, as DMEC, we really try to balance these types of sessions, the detail driven pieces where we are diving into kind of a narrow scope. We're talking about, like fitness for duty and medical assessments, and giving people the tools to navigate those with the fine details, and then also stepping back to that more holistic process and giving content around those, and really making that balance to make sure our attendees are set up with the knowledge they need for success. And we really try to carry that model throughout our training and education overall to give that balance to people, to meet our audience where they are and give them the tools and the knowledge that they need. But for me, that really stood out from, from what's a draw kind of, for attendees.

[34:33] Heather Grimshaw: Those are really helpful perspectives. Thank you for those. So, attendees, questions submitted through the conference app are always interesting, especially since attendees can vote on the questions, which pushes them up to the top of the list. I have a tendency to watch them very closely to see what gets pushed up to the top. Kristen, you do such a nice job facilitating these questions with conference speakers, hoping you will talk a little bit about the themes you identified and what questions got the most votes. In other words, what did attendees want more information about?

[35:11] Kristin Jones: I love seeing the questions. I'm just going to start there. I think getting to moderate the questions is a lot of fun and really interesting, and it's enjoyable that you kind of feel like the liaison between the attendees and the presenters and kind of bridging that gap for people. And I think that's a lot of fun. The questions run the gamut. I think that stands out to me quite a bit in the questions consistently, both in webinars, in conferences, and in all of our conferences, is we have some, a lot of people would probably consider some pretty basic or foundational questions around programs, compliance, things like that. And that shows, you know, we're getting people maybe earlier into their experience with these programs, or a little less certain. And so they're really looking for that foundation of content and of knowledge and then we also get some more complex ones with specific scenarios. Those are always the most challenging. You know, I work really hard to try to make the questions applicable for a broad audience out there. So, you know, and being cognizant, if we have lawyers who are presenting for us and don't, you know, can't be in a position of giving specific advice, legal advice, you know, but making it feel like it is really helpful and moves the needle for attendees. So that's always an interesting balance to try to find. Those questions tend to get voted up a lot, the specific questions, people want to kind of see it in action they like seeing, or even if it's not a scenario that necessarily applies to them. I think sometimes those more complex questions get voted up because it is the opportunity to see the application of what has been spoken about. But we also get a lot of votes on those foundational questions as well, which, again, I think that is that audience who's really looking for that basic foundational information. And so I think that's really informative to the overall programming of our conferences as well. It is a really sweet, delicate spot to try to hit, especially for general sessions where it's one session at a time for the full audience to make sure it's not too much for those who are looking for that or who need that foundational knowledge. And it's not too basic for those who are maybe at a more senior level with their experience in that particular topic. And that will vary because someone who's at a really experienced level of knowledge with, say, the FMLA, maybe isn't as experienced with ADA or with the PWFA or with other areas or emerging technologies and things coming about there, really just making sure that on the whole, that content can fit everyone, a really broad audience. And then as we go into the concurrent sessions, there's the opportunity to really round out that knowledge and that educational experience. But I think to me, that really stands out if it just really shows the diversity of the audience that we see questions on both ends of that spectrum getting, I would say, almost equal attention.

[38:48] Heather Grimshaw: Absolutely. Thank you for that. So paid family leave featured prominently on this conference agenda, which is not surprising given the number of state paid family leave laws across the US. Bryon, would you talk about the array subtopics that were also covered during the conference and a few of the take home messages that resonated with you?

[39:11] Bryon Bass: Yes. So there were a number of areas that were covered from a paid family leave perspective, we saw things from building your program, how paid family leave integrates with other types of benefits that might be being offered at the employer level. How are you communicating with employees regarding their paid family leave benefits and their rights to those benefits, along with some additional information from Colorado and Connecticut in terms of the state plan and what they're seeing there? I found it interesting. One of the things that many of us in the industry had been worried about was the potential for the increased utilization of leave because of the enactment of these paid family and medical leaves laws across the nation. You know, we still have a long way to go in terms of the number of states that are offering them, but Colorado and Connecticut both were able to offer some statistical information in their session on Colorado and Connecticut PFML, what's worked, what hasn't and what's next. And one of the stats that I found interesting in terms of overall duration is that both Colorado and Connecticut offer a maximum of twelve weeks for all leave reasons, except for in Colorado pregnancy and childbirth where you get an additional four weeks of time. And then in Connecticut, if there's any incapacity during pregnancy, there's an additional two weeks on the twelve. And for any family violence, only twelve days may be used. But with all that said, the PFML links for both, both those states were pretty consistent with each other at 7.62 weeks in Colorado and 7.17 weeks in Connecticut. And that's pretty consistent with what we've seen with utilization overall as it relates to leave at the FMLA level. Generally speaking, you see that type of duration and that's probably because of that twelve week mark more than anything else. But there was also a lot of detail around the types of leave that was being taken and who they were using it to care for. And this was resonating with me from a take home perspective around the sandwich generation. And when we talk about the sandwich generation, that's the generation that has aging parents and they probably still have children in the home that they're needing to take care of. And as a result, looking at the statistics from Colorado and Connecticut, both of them, both states, number one reason for leave was to care for a parent at more than a third of the leave being taken for that reason, and then second to that was for the spouse and then thirdly was the child. And so that really just resonated with me in terms of we really need to ensure that we're thinking about that caregiver and what supports we can provide for the caregiver overall and how we need to think differently perhaps around how leave might be utilized by individuals that are in that sandwich role where they're having to provide care for both a parent and a child.

[42:58] Heather Grimshaw: That's really helpful, Bryon. Thank you for that. So, the last session of the conference, time for change, meeting the needs of all of your employees by focusing on ability, focused on the pressing need for employees to provide inclusive work environments. I'm hoping that you all will share some of what you learned from this session, as well as others about what employers need to do differently to ensure inclusive workplaces that nothing, only attract top talent, but retain that top talent. Jess, would you kick us off here? And then we'll ask Kristen and Bryon to weigh in?

[43:36] Jess Dudley: Sure. Yeah. I think in the final session, and really kind of as a central theme throughout the conference, what I heard was there was a need for documentation, communication, whether it be strong, consistent, or just in time, you need communication and training. We heard a lot about focusing on the positives, more so of what an employee can do rather than what they're limited on doing. And I think in this particular session, there were discussions around how the landscape is ever evolving and new laws, and there's increased enforcement efforts and how the EEOC and the DoL are partnering together. And we've heard that since 2010 there was a 44.3% increase in the monetary benefits awarded for employees who filed for ADA discrimination. I think all of this comes together to underscore the urgency for employers to work to bridge that gap between what employees need and what employers are really able to offer. And I think one critical puzzle piece to this is really training for supervisors and managers, whether it's through one of our DMEC resources like the FMLA, ADA supervisor and manager training, or micro credential or CLMS certification. I think the message was pretty clear that training is essential. It helps to ensure consistency and guidance. It helps them to know where their boundaries are, respect the privacies of the claimants, what are they entitled to? It fosters a mindset shift that makes it from seeing leave and accommodation as this big burden, and it gives them the tools and the knowledge of how to respond with empathy and care. And I think that is something that can make a big difference. I don't know. Kristen, what were your thoughts?

[45:27] Kristin Jones: I love all of that as well. I think it was a really exciting or motivating session. I don't even know the right word for it, but it really, I think, got our brains working in some different ways to think about the possibilities. And I thought that was really motivating and exciting for all of us. I really loved just the message threaded throughout about considering the possibilities and reconsidering what we have historically thought is not possible. I think. I mean, I know we're kind of over the COVID conversation, but I'm just gonna say I think Covid opened us up to that in some ways. And so if you wanna call that a silver lining, I think maybe we're conditioned a little bit more after that to be open to looking at the possibilities and rethinking the way we have done things. Maybe that's helped at the leadership level, where there have maybe been some of those. Well, this is how we've always done it, and now we have an opportunity to break through that, because in our recent history, we have lived through a time when we have had to do that. And so maybe now that's a toe in to deepen that. And some of the ways they illustrated that in this session were through some real world case studies, and they were around items like, there was a deaf sales associate who. Well, he was an applicant first, obviously, and it. It was, he came in for the interview, and they realized he was hearing. He could not hear. And immediately the first thought is, well, he can't be a sales associate. He can't interact with the, with the customers who come in. This is a retail environment. But they thought it. They rethought some of their, you know, constructs around that, and it actually has increased sales in that store, because now the, the deaf community comes in there to interact with him as well as he's very effective in that role and what he does with the hearing community as well. They gave an example of a wheelchair user who now works at that retail location. And one of the issues there was, there was a desk that he would interact with customers over the desk, and, you know, completing these sales. And the desk was too high. It was, you know, like chest or waist height for a standing individual. And that was problematic. And so the first thought is, oh, gosh, can he do this job? Well, yeah, we just need to change it out, get a lower desk. And guess what? That also helped the customers. So it improved inclusivity and accessibility for the customers who maybe weren't able for various reasons, including maybe being in a wheelchair, but other reasons, that desk height wasn't comfortable for them. Really looking at those possibilities opened up opportunities, opened up inclusivity for everyone, and ultimately made that store stronger. And also, they talked about looking at that at all stages. And so I was really struck with, they talked about, in particular, in one of their examples, the individual almost didn't apply for a position? Because he's like, well, I can't do these two things as they're listed in the job description, but you know what? I'm going to apply anyway. And we'll see. He got an interview. The interviewer really liked him and said, we'll figure out how to do that, but it really had to make this work. And he was very successful. But I was really struck by a couple of things in that. One is, what if he hadn't even applied? You know, we really need to look at our job descriptions, and is what we have in the job description a true reflection of what has to be done, what is being done in this role, and how it has to be done? Or can we find more ways to be open and flexible in our language around those things so that we're not deterring people from even approaching the starting line with us? I think that's the first step of really making our workforce inclusive and accessible. It's not. It is the things we do when we have people in the doors, but it's also getting them to the doors and getting them to even apply. And I don't want to go down a whole different rabbit hole. But I was also struck with, you know, we know through research and studies, women are less likely to apply for a job if they don't meet every single requirement and can't meet every single expectation on that list. You know, research will show that for various social reasons, men are more likely to apply for a position if they meet most of the requirements or some of the requirements, women less so. So that further blocks out a demographic of the workforce that really we're wanting to bring in and wanting to keep engaged. So I just thought that conversation was really interesting and really eye opening that aspect of just considering those possibilities in different ways and consider how they're positioned for people.

[50:38] Heather Grimshaw: Okay. And last but not least, certainly, Bryon, it would be great to hear you weigh in here as well.

[50:44] Bryon Bass: Bryon, I would say everything that was just said. Bye, Jetson. Kristen was very, very, very good, so I would, I don't think I would have anything to add in.

[50:55] Heather Grimshaw: Okay, perfect. Yeah. It was really wonderful to hear people as they left the conference talking, as Kristen mentioned about how they felt so inspired and were looking forward to getting back to their offices or workplaces and sharing some of their take home and putting things into place. So that's always wonderful to hear attendees say and share. So I'd like to wrap up our conversation today by noting that DMEC is preparing for its virtual annual conference on September 18, and we encourage listeners to visit the DMEC website to see the agenda and register. This is a unique opportunity to hear four of the top-rated sessions from the in person conference, along with roundtable discussions that provide attendees with an opportunity to engage with industry experts and peers. We will include the URL in the notes section of this episode and hope you join us on September 18. So with that, I'd just like to thank Jess, Kristen, and Bryon for their time today. We really appreciate your thoughts here and weighing in on takeaways from the conference.

[52:04] Bryon Bass: Thank you.

[52:05] Jess Dudley: Thank you.

[52:06] Kristin Jones: Thank you.