DMEC: Welcome to Absence Management Perspectives, a DMEC podcast.

The Disability Management Employer Coalition, or DMEC as we're known by most people,

provides focused education, knowledge and networking opportunities for absence and disability management professionals. DMEC has become a leading voice in the industry and represents more than 20,000 professionals from organizations of all sizes across the United States and Canada. This podcast series focuses on industry perspectives and delves into issues that affect DMEC members and the community as a whole. We're thrilled to have you with us and hope you'll Visit us at www.DMEC.org to get a full picture of what we have to offer,

from webinars and publications to conferences, certifications, and much more. Let's get started and meet the people behind the processes.

Heather Grimshaw: Hi, we're glad you're with us. I'm Heather Grimshaw with dmec,

Seth, maybe you can kick us off here and then we'll ask Lizzie to chime in with any context or additional information she'd like to share.

Seth Turner: Yeah, thanks, Heather. And I think, you know, as we did our survey last year of employers about the topics that were coming up for them around leave and accommodations. One of the top was accommodating neurodiversity, and they're seeing it as one of the top reasons for accommodation requests. We thought it would make sense to dig into that a little more, and it's certainly something our clients are struggling with as they see these requests rise. As I dug into just some of the people that operate in this space really found Lizzie's perspective on it incredibly interesting and applicable to how we view it in the DMEC space as well as in leaving accommodations, and so had the extreme pleasure of being able to present with her a few times and to learn a lot from her about the way to both accommodate employees, but just honestly how easy, easy it is to make some minor changes to make those accommodations work.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah. And I think from my perspective, it's, yeah, the topic is just of increasing importance to employers. Right. Because employees are really gaining knowledge in this area, we're having a lot of people being diagnosed later in life and kind of learning about their neurodivergence for the first time and therefore starting to ask for accommodations when they might never have had them before. So it's really important that employers know how to handle those requests.

Heather Grimshaw: So to set the stage for our conversation, would you please share a high-level overview or definition of the word neurodiversity and the need for employers to identify and consider the unique needs of neurodiverse employees. Lizzie, let's start with you here and then we'll ask Seth to weigh in.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, so I always explain neurodiversity in relation to the concept of biodiversity. So just like we're saying that there's almost limitless variety of life on earth, equally there's variety in human neurology. So we're describing that kind of natural variation between human brain functioning. So every single person has unique mind and experiences the world in unique ways. And there's no one kind of right way of thinking, of learning, of behaving.

And we're not viewing those differences in thinking as deficits, which is what we kind of traditionally have done under a more kind of medicalized view of neurodiversity.

So we have that kind of overarching concept of neurodiversity. And then within this, we have this idea of neurodivergence, which is basically anyone who, who has a brain type that isn't what is dominant in society and considered normal by society. So that's things like autism and OCD and ADHD and Tourette's and dyslexia and all those different neurotypes which altogether add up to about 1 in 5 or 1 in 4. Even individuals being neurodivergent, which is really a good chunk of a lot of workforces. Right. And it's also likely to be higher in certain industries that might naturally sort of attract creative thinkers and things like that. You might find that the proportion of neurodivergent individuals in your particular workplace is even higher than that. And that means it's really essential for employers to kind of know how to support this portion of their workforce and not kind of ignore them, as has kind of happened in the past. And particularly kind of learn to focus on the neurodivergent strengths that are being brought to the workplace. And I don't know, maybe, Seth, you want to talk about that part a bit more?

Seth Turner: I think I really view it as an opportunity to have people that think differently and can tackle Things from a different angle to get around the group think. And so I view the neurodiverse employees as a strategic advantage to a lot of organizations if they can take the time to understand how to fit them into their teams and how to make that work. And so certainly exploring different viewpoints, being able to focus more clearly, being able to combat groupthink, are all talents or skills that neurodiverse individuals bring to teams and to employers. And so by putting accommodations in place, a lot of which are very low cost or no cost, they can really just ramp up the power of their workforce and deliver much better results by making small steps.

Heather Grimshaw: That's really helpful to hear both the number. So one in five, I think you said, Lizzie, or one in four even. And then, Seth, to hear about that, the strategic ability to look at things differently and get away from that group think, which I think more and more people are acknowledging they need to do. So it would be helpful to hear you both talk about where employers are today in terms of understanding the needs of neurodiverse employees within the disability management and absence management realm, which, as you know, includes a focus on helping employees stay at work with accommodations. So would love to hear your thoughts on where folks are and how they're sort of implementing different approaches. Seth, will you kick us off there and then we'll ask Lizzie to chime in?

Seth Turner: Oh, sure. I think it's a mix that, you know, some employers are much more aware of their employees and some have, you know, put together, er, G's around neurodiversity. Others have specific programs for neurodiversity. And so I do think that there are some players that have really considered this and put some thoughtful things in place. I think there are some, though, that are on the very far end of the spectrum that don't understand it at all. And I think I'll even bucket that into more. There are certain industries where the managers or that certain parts of the organization are less willing or less ready to accept neurodiversity than others. And so I think it's just. It's a mixed bag. And it's one that I think I was interested as we went through our sessions at dmec, that at the compliance conference, the number of employers that were there, that maybe they individually had a neurodiverse child or they themselves had been diagnosed as neurodiverse as an adult. And just, you know, we're starting to see, I think more people that have experience with neurodiversity and other aspects of their life bring that into their workforce. And that's helping them. Helping. I think organizations really adopt and approach and think differently about neurodiverse employees than they have in the past.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. I think, like, a lot of my work is kind of going into different workspaces and trainings and things on neurodiversity. And very often I am kind of brought in or encouraged to be brought in by a neurodivergent individual from that workplace who's kind of said, hey, HR team, we want to hear this person speak. So that's a lot of the changes being driven by neurodivergent individuals in their workspaces. And I see, again, I think I agree as well about it being a mixed bag. A lot of the time I'm brought into companies when they're at the very beginning stages of their journeys and they're kind of looking for an introduction to neurodiversity training or they're wanting to know where to start with kind of updating their policies around, you know, absence or around recruitment or around anything to be more neuro inclusive. So I'm kind of often there when companies are just starting their journey, and very often in those cases around accommodations, they will have an accommodations process in place, but it's very often designed with physical disabilities in mind. And it might actually be very tricky for a neurodivergent individual to kind of navigate and access. So, for example, if your process has got like a lot of paperwork involved in it, that might be far for someone who has a physical disability, but for someone with ADHD or dyslexia, they're going to really struggle to even access that process. So it's kind of thinking about the things that you've already put in place from that new perspective. And yet most companies that I interact with at least are kind of at the early stages of that.

Heather Grimshaw: That's helpful. I think it's also nice to hear that people are, whether it's a personal experience or recognizing a need in the workplace, coming forward and recognizing the need to look at this differently and inviting the conversation. Lizzie, during the presentation at the compliance conference, you talked about the need for employers to speak more openly about neurodiversity with employees. And I'm hoping that you'll talk a little bit about why this is important and how it creates, as you mentioned during the conference, psychological safety.

I'm using air quotes as I say that. And also I think it, it this question ties into something that Seth mentioned earlier about people feeling confident in raising the issue with people and in that work setting. So hoping that you'll both talk a little bit about this and Lizzie, maybe you can kick us off here and then we'll ask Seth to share his thoughts.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, we were talking about this idea in the context of disclosure. So autistic individuals in particular have quite low disclosure rates because really there's still quite a lot of stigma and misperceptions around autism. So in most cases when we do tell someone, like at best they kind of don't know how to react and at worst they can react in ways that can be quite traumatic or harmful to us. And that kind of feeling able to disclose is a marker that you trust this person with that information, which is. It's very sensitive information to the individual. Right. And kind of creating that trust is something that we want for all of our employees. We want everyone to be able to share if they've got something big going on in their personal life or whatever that's impacting them at work. But it's especially, especially important and especially tricky I think, for neuro divergent individuals who don't have the comfort of being part of the majority and they are going to have to do that scary thing of advocating for themselves and asking for things to be done differently for them, which is a really hard thing to do in any context and particularly at work. So if they kind of know because the workplace has talked about neurodiversity, they've done trainings, they've adjusted some kind of parts of their culture and things like this, if that's already happened, they have more confidence that they're going to be able share their diagnosis and ask for those accommodations without having potential repercussions on the career or without having difficulty from their manager or whatever it is that they're kind of worried about being the response, there's less of a concern over that if the company's already kind of proactively started to talk about neurodiversity and make their environment more inclusive as a whole.

And it's just also there's so many things that you can kind of implement at a companywide level that are going to help all individuals whether they're neurodivergent or not. So if you think about a lot of accommodations are around communication, around putting in place good practices around meetings, for example, like using AI summary tools so that everyone has a good, clear, concise summary of the meeting afterwards and has an opportunity to kind of follow up in writing all of these things are. Or having an agenda. It's like it's a good practice to have anyway for everybody in your company. It's going to help everyone have more efficient meetings.

And if you're doing that and saying, hey, we're doing this because we want all neurotypes to be able to access this meeting, then it's kind of an example of something that can make neurodivergent individuals feel a lot more confident in sharing their neurodiversity.

Seth Turner: I think I'll double down on what Lizzie said. Just about a lot of these are just good business practices. I think when we talked about the fact that distributing an agenda beforehand helps you run a better meeting, whether you're neurodiverse or not having summary of follow ups and other things that people can take away, that's a great business practice to have as well. And I think that's something you would see in any, any webinar on running good meetings. And it's just one that also helps with neurodiversity. I also think some of the things we discussed like giving people a little bit of personal space when you're having a conversation with them and I think these are some of the things that through the pandemic and people not being in the office, maybe we lost a little bit of those social cues and the ability to read those.

There's a lot of just very small adjustments to words and behaviors and things like allowing people not to have their camera on because they perform better that way or you know, letting people have a little process any feedback that you give them because diverse individuals can react much more emotionally to feedback. And so for anybody, when you get feedback you probably need a little bit of space and time, but it just is more important in that scenario.

Heather Grimshaw: The examples that you're both sharing are really fantastic because I think they illustrate the small adjustments or small changes that can be made. And Lizzie, as you noted, that really benefit or could benefit everyone. So a comment was made during the conference session about ensuring that employers leave management processes are neuro inclusive. And I'm hoping you'll talk a little bit more about what that means. For example, you talked about a possible disconnect between a process or a program that might be legally compliant versus those that are neuro inclusive. So Seth, would you kick us off here and then we'll ask Lizzie to weigh in with suggestions for how employers can identify and address these possible disconnects.

Seth Turner: Yeah, sure. I, I'll give a very simple example and then I'll let Lizzie really give us the neuro Inclusive exam, you know, solution. But I think, you know, our, our first thought when we get a leave request is to send an individual a leave packet that is 32 pages long and has a hundred different instructions and follow ups and all of that. And I think for at least as, as I talked with Lizzie, for, you know, neurodiverse individuals, that's a lot of information.

And so, you know, there are ways to streamline that, to communicate more clearly. I think, you know, I didn't mention my previous conversation of our previous example of neurodiverse inclusion. You know, neurodiverse individuals would like to get one question at a time instead of three lumped into one big question. And so just by breaking things out and making them more simple and clear, you can make it much more accessible for neurodiverse and non neurodiverse employees. Even, even I would prefer to only get one page with instructions about exactly what I need to do versus 32 I have to sort through. So that's a long way of saying, I think by simplifying it, making it clear, and providing information that's kind of digestible in smaller chunks, you can make it much more accessible to everybody. And then Lizzie, I'll let you actually correct me there and make it more relevant.

Lizzie Somerfield: It's just kind of building on it. And I think you've highlighted like, communication is probably the biggest piece of this. So what we're talking about basically is that even if you had the most legally compliant process in the world, the law is not designed to be neuro inclusive, which means that that process might still not be accessible for neurodivergent individuals or just designed in ways that they can approach it without significant levels of stress and trouble. And communication is probably the biggest piece of this.

Like one of the biggest things I always say with neurodiversity is communication.

There can be like 10,000 different ways that individuals can prefer to be communicated with. Like it might be in writing is too much and they would need, they want the instructions verbally and then followed up in writing, or they need everything written and then have time to process and then they want to speak to you about it afterwards. So it's about kind of respecting that people are going to need to receive this information in multiple ways and having those options available to them. And another part of this process is there was a survey done kind of a couple of years ago about autistic individuals disclosing. And I think it was, it was definitely the majority. I can't remember the exact statistic, but autistic individuals most often choose to disclose only to their direct line manager. And that's because we've built up that level of psychological safety and trust that I was talking about earlier with that individual.

And so if as part of your process, you're requiring that individual to talk to a stranger about something that's very vulnerable and scary for them, you are unlikely to get them. Like, it might actually be the thing that causes them to drop out of your process. And it's still a legally compliant way to do it, to say, hey, go talk to this occupational health person or this person in HR or whatever. Very common and kind of an okay and acceptable thing when we think about physical disabilities.

Heather Grimshaw: So that leads me into my next question, which was really digging into something that was said during the compliance conference session about a unique level of burnout for employees who are neurodiverse. I believe the specific example was for autistic burnout. And I'm hoping, Lizzie, that you might kick us off with this and. And shed a little bit of light on that.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, so I think burnout, I think, is a. It's obviously a problem for the population at large with neurodivergence. There can be a couple of different levels of this really.

For example, a lot of individuals who might not have been diagnosed earlier in life will only be diagnosed after they kind of hit burnout. And then they kind of realize or start to investigate why they were struggling in that particular moment and then learn a bit more about their brain and different coping mechanisms. And maybe they get diagnosed at that point, but can actually be kind of a trigger for diagnosis, just burnout in general. But there's also this kind of added layer of if neurodivergent individuals as a whole. I think we often think about neurodiversity as just like, oh, a different brain type, but actually it affects your entire body, and in particular, it infects your entire nervous system. So you're walking around with this mirror, very sensitive nervous system, which is why neurodivergent individuals are often very sensory sensitive and things like that.

And it means often that neurodivergent individuals are more commonly in fight or flight mode than neurotypical individuals. And so we just kind of, if your body is stressed out and your nervous system is stressed out like that, you are more likely to become more exhausted more quickly. And then you add in the fact that, for example, for autistic individuals, we are also existing in part of a culture that speaks almost a different language to us. We speak kind of generally the Autistic people very direct and literally and often that is not how society at large is speaking. So we're having to do these kind of live translations about what they mean versus what I said and all these things. So you've got those added layers of communication that impact your level of energy on a day-to-day basis.

So it is more likely that neurodivergent individuals are going to become burnt out. And then you've got this added layer of when you do become burnt out, all of those struggles that you have, the communication, the sensory sensitivity, all of those things become more acute.

So for example, if I'm very tired, my sensory sensitivity will be extremely heightened and I will need to very much care for all of my senses and do different things to make sure that I'm not becoming stressed out by noises and things like that. So I have to very much manage my energy levels, but also my sensory experiences to ensure that I'm not becoming burned out. And if you are in that state of autistic burnout, it's like every tiny little things can kind of so a meltdown or a shutdown, for example, when you kind of lose the ability to speak and it can be something very tiny that kind of starts setting that off. If you are an autistic burnout because your nervous system is already kind of wrung out from, from those experiences. So yeah, it's just kind of all of those different things that we, we, we struggle with as neurodivergent individuals because of our sensory sensitivity and our nervous systems that get exacerbated in those,

in those moments when we're a bit more exhausted.

Heather Grimshaw: It's helpful to hear the different steps and as you said, to be be aware and protective. And I'm thinking from an employer vantage point, what would be a way for employers to lay the groundwork to prevent an autistic type of burnout?

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, I guess it's part of providing accommodations up front. And so for example, if the individual is particularly sensitive to noise, you put your accommodations in place to for example, give them noise cancelling headphones or like working in an office instead of open plan and things like that. But also allowing those accommodations to adjust over time and knowing that they're not going to be static. That's really important. These things need to be reviewed on an ongoing basis, depending on where the individual is at with their capacity.

But also knowing that there are going to be basically it's like capacity is a day to day thing. It's not going to be consistent and kind of Recognizing that if you give an individual kind of a bit more of allowance for a little while while they're struggling, they're going to come back and be able to give you that increased productivity and things that is also their strength.

So kind of allowing their work life balance and they're showing up at work to look a little bit different to neurotypical employees as well, is kind of a mindset shift that is helpful.

Heather Grimshaw: So it was great to see so many attendees asking questions after the session, including one person who asked for recommendations for working with Neurodiverse employees. She mentioned repeated attempts that had not been successful. And I saw some people in the audience nodding in agreement, which made me wonder if this is a common question or request that you get or really more of a common need. I'm also curious if you fielded similar questions during the roundtable. So, Seth, I'm hoping that you'll kick us off here in terms of your experience as an employer as well as your experience in the roundtable, and then we'll Difficulty to weigh in.

Seth Turner: Yeah, I think there was a real desire or interest in understanding. Right. It was, it was more of a. I, I'm always afraid I'm going to offend somebody or I'm going to say the wrong thing. And so the question I, as, as I interpreted it and we heard it quite a bit was, you know, just help give me some tips on how to best communicate with neurodiverse individuals. You know, what are some, some common things to look for, things to do that that was really it. And it was coming from a real place of just understanding in a way of how can I make relationship with, with this individual better or how can I be more effective in, in how I approach, you know, the accommodations process or in, in my communication. So it was, I thought, a very refreshing take in that people really wanted to understand how they could improve the way that they communicate or the way that they interpret, you know, reactions in interactions.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, and I think, from my perspective, I think a lot of this comes from. We are now seeing this wave of individuals being diagnosed as adults when they were missed in childhood. And that has kind of two consequences that I really see. One is when, when you're talking to them about accommodations, they have never been accommodated in their life. They don't know what they need. And so if you're offering things, they don't know whether it's going to be successful. And if it doesn't work, then it's not a failure. It's a, okay, what else can we try so that's a really important kind of knowledge to have going into those conversations. And then added layer on top of that for ADHD individuals is it is like a natural part of our brains that we seek novelty. And so you could design the perfect accommodation for an AHDA that will work for six months, and then their brain will suddenly decide that it will no longer participate in that process. So you are always naturally going to have to evolve your processes. And it's a helpful mindset shift to think about it not as a permanent solution, but as an ongoing conversation.

So I think that's part of an important part of the conversation. And then the other element of this, of the language piece that Seth was talking, same thing, really. Like the neurodivergent individuals who have gone their whole lives without being diagnosed until. Until adulthood. We had labels before we were labeled as neurodivergent, but they were stubborn or problematic or,

I don't know, they were just like negative kind of stereotypes and stigmas that followed us around. Most people didn't understand our brain types. And so when we hear this positive language of neurodiversity, we can get really attached to it and really kind of insist on.

On being referred to in that positive way as compared to all of those previous negative labels that we had our whole lives. And so that can be part of the reason that I think from the outside it looks like neurodivergent individuals are just so particular about language and so hard to talk to about neurodiversity because they are so insistent on using right terms. But it's really become a matter of identity and how they identify with this language, and that's why it becomes really important. And so I think one of the tips that I shared in this context in the roundtable was make it really explicit to the individual that you are learning and you are willing to adapt your language as you go and learn from them, and that you will recognize that they will have personal preferences about language and you're willing to consider those as you work together in this process. So I think often we can assume that the other person is going to know that in a conversation, but often it's actually not the case. And if we just make that clear to them, it can really kind of help that. That dynamic and help that relationship a lot.

Seth Turner: Heather, that was really a point that came up because we had several neurodiverse individuals in the audience. And I think it was clear that just asking, instead of tiptoeing around or being afraid, just acknowledge that it's not an area you're comfortable with or that you've dealt with in the past and you'd like to learn and understand and figure out a way to communicate. And that was received very well by the HR professionals that were dealing with this as well as the individuals that were there that were neurodiverse. So I think it's just, just ask and have a conversation and you can figure it out.

Heather Grimshaw: That context, I think is so important and really giving that permission because I think it is something that I've heard in the past that people are nervous, they don't want to use the wrong word and alienate or potentially create a different type of a roadblock.

So it's really helpful to hear the context as well as the suggestions and those tips. And this leads me into my next question, which is there has been an emphasis on the important role that managers can play when it comes to accommodating neurodiverse employees. And a comment was made during this session, I believe, about almost a knee jerk reaction to having it be simpler to maybe pay for an accommodation rather than make an important change to an employer's culture. Again, that maybe a nervousness there or not knowing what the right approach would be.

So I'm hoping, Lizzie that you'll talk a little bit about that and we can start with you and then ask Seth to share his experiences as well.

Lizzie Somerfield: Yeah, yeah. So I think I kind of alluded to this earlier. The surveys that we do have about neurodivergence and accommodations, I think it's conducted by the Neurodiversity and business charity in the UK, kind of indicate more often than not it's the individual's manager who really determines whether the autistic person in particular in this case is able to access accommodations, is able to thrive at work or is even able to stay in employment.

Right. Because autistic individuals across the world have very low employment rates, is around 29% in most Western countries. It's kind of appalling. But the manager is really the person who makes that crucial difference in terms of how an autistic individual experiences a workplace and when they're able to remain there. And because autism is a social and communication-based disability, therefore it means that we need social and communication-based accommodations. But those are really tricky. Right. It's requires the manager to make an ongoing commitment to use direct language and give direct clear instructions. And the level of what direct mean is going to be kind of determined between those two people and having ongoing conversations about whether it's working or whether it's not. And so it's a lot more kind of conversation and discussion about what exactly those communication and social elements are for that specific individual rather than, you know, making a one off payment to buy a software or something. That's not necessarily going to help in autistic individual. So it's. Yeah, managers can kind of be scared and be put off by that ongoing commitment and have a fear that, oh, I'm gonna, you know, get called out or you have problems with this employee if I forget to do this this one time. And so it can kind of create quite a lot of tension in these accommodations conversations. Yeah. I don't know if there's anything else, Seth, that you wanted to add or Heather, that you wanted to follow up there, but it's. Yeah, it's kind of a tricky dynamic.

Seth Turner: I think for me. Right. I think every conversation I have these days, days is please train your managers on leave and accommodations because they're the ones that get all the requests or more than more than 50% of those requests. And so it's really important that they understand not only the legal rights, but also their role in the process. Because as we did a survey with employees, the number one reason that employees felt like their accommodation was successful or that, you know, and it impacted their retention and a bunch of other productivity types of things is how their manager handled it. And so it's really, really important that managers understand this, that they're trained in that. And I think one of the things that came up in the session was my managers are all older and they don't understand neurodiversity. How do I come to them with somebody that needs an accommodation? And I think that the answer really is outline for them the benefits that this employee is bringing to their team. What's in it for that manager to accommodate this employee and the ways that it can impact their workforce. And I think that resonated with a lot of the employ there that, you know, there are ways just to, you know, position it in the right way so that, you know, just like every accommodation, it should work for the employer and the employee and it should benefit both of them. And so that's, that's really the way we like to look at it, is how do we kind of enlarge the pie by bringing somebody with a unique skill set into a role that they can then make a significant impact on the business results of the organization. And there's a lot of opportunity to do that here.

Heather Grimshaw: Those are great points, Seth. Thank you so much for bringing this full circle and. And emphasizing the need to educate and empower managers to have these very important conversations. So as we wrap up here, it would be so nice to hear your takeaways from the session as well as the roundtable at the conference.

Seth Turner: Yeah, so I think what struck me as we sat particularly in the roundtable is just how broadly reaching neurodiversity is. I think as I looked out at the audience, we had employers that had never had a neurodiverse employee. We had employees that had been neurodiverse their entire life. We had some adults that had been diagnosed as neurodiverse. We had some parents that had neurodiverse children that both were curious about or really curious about how to help their children integrate into the workforce as they came out of college.

And because their children had accommodations their entire life in school. And so how did they make that work? And so, again, it was broadly reaching, and there were a lot of different viewpoints. And so it was really interesting to hear the different ways and I think thought, you know, the. The tips that Lizzie gave, because I'm. I'm just learning this and so.

But I thought from. From my perspective, it was just incredibly interesting to hear the different perspectives and the different ways that neurodiversity both benefited and challenged employers in. In how they were working. And so what I walked away with was just, you know, it's a conversation like the interactive process that the more you ask and the more you discuss and the more you look for creative problem solving, the more you can utilize the skill sets of neurodiverse individuals in the way that they benefit the organization the best, and makes them happy, as well as the way that you can. Can really tackle some of the business problems that you have. And so that's. That's what I walked away with. I don't know, Lizzie, if there's anything you'd want to close with here in any.

Lizzie Somerfield: Session that I do, and in particular here at the. At the Round table,

I love those Q and A's, and I love the. Seeing the engagement by so many different types of people with this conversation, because for a long time, no one was talking about valor. So that's my biggest takeaway is just kind of seeing the. Kind of. The scale of interest in this topic and seeing people really wanting to know solutions and wanting to kind of trial and error their way through this. And we handed out some kind of accommodations lists, and people were kind of really interested to take those away and try those out and things like that. So, yeah, just seeing the level of engagement on this topic is the biggest thing for me.

Heather Grimshaw: Thank you both so much for your time today and your willingness to share both these wonderful tips, as well as the different perspectives and really the permission to have these conversations. It's incredibly helpful. So thank you both.

Lizzie Somerfield: Thank you, Heather.

Seth Turner: Thanks.